Curse

Epinephrine · Jun 25, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrk247

Bows are not underpowered nor are they overpowered they are balanced. When half of people say they are underpowered and half say they are overpowered that means they are balanced.

Or it means half are deluded and half are right. Facts aren't determined democratically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Like I said on GWOnline...
<snippity snip>
A look at strictly 5 energy based skills:

Heh, GWO... there are good reasons I don't bother with it anymore...

I don't care about your list of 5 energy skills; you have to take base damage into account, RoF and the fact that adrenaline skills boost the damage per energy and in fact make a lot of difference.

The most telling facts are that rangers aren't used for damage in high level play, and that Ensign agrees that they're underpowered. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant - point to skills like Keen Arrow all you want, Ensign knows the game inside out, and the collection of top players aren't likely to all be wrong.

imblo · Jun 25, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yes, bows are underpowered. The only reason Burning Arrow is the elite of choice on a Ranger is because it's the one skill that enables a Ranger to actually kill things. Otherwise you're a couple of good interrupts on a hard target but not much else.

Agree with Ensign on this one. Rangers used to get a lot of their damage in the way of using degen conditions.

Nightfall and Factions have brought us many condition removal skills. In particular, signet of malice and mending touch which are useful on non-monk primaries. This has reduced the effectiveness of rangers who rely heavily on conditions to provide damage.

Also, the bow attack rate is low, meaning conditions can't be (re)applied all too fast. Further, monk skills which remove conditions often heal upon removal, which often negates the degen from conditions altogether.

Burning works as a condition for rangers because it does its damage quickly; by the time someone has reacted to remove it, it's already finished.

The lack of damage comes to the fore, when you're trying to take down a monk in PvP with a ranger. The quick casts times are near impossible to interrupt (if you are one of those people who claim to be able to interrupt RoF on a regular basis, good for you - spare a thought for the mere mortals here). While it is possible to use BHA to apply an unconditional daze, most of the time an affected monk can wait out the daze period (as your ranger won't have enough damage to take advantage of the condition) and then heal up.

I don't think increasing the refire rate or upping base damage would necessarily fix the problem. I was thinking perhaps consider additional effects for hitting certain body parts. For example:
Head shot - could result in slight slowing of casting time for affected target
Hand shot - slight reduction in attack speed/damage
Foot shot - slight reduction in movement speed for small duration

Would trigger on hits, not necessarily skills used.

LifeInfusion · Jun 25, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeniusLoci

Although I believe there are some valid points, I still don't agree the underpowered part.

For example:
Not so many attacks get crits. it's like asuming one will have high enough L-ship for GftE and 16 in Spear mastery.

LifeInfusion

Mighty Throw is at 3 sec cast. The rest are actually the only good attacks we have. You have at least 3x the quantity with very different effects, although they make less damage. Try to apply dazed with spear. Or shoot forked with damage preparation - which does more damage now? Preps are hard to use with Paragon, so the point about poison is not very good. I can surely use Apply Poison but at what cost?

You also know how is adrenaline different than energy based skills. You can't just spam the hell out of them before the fight is half finished. If I don't hit, I can't shoot the rest of the attacks. Out of melee you get adrenaline only from attacks so w/o IAS it's almost impossible to get it at good rate. But now we need one slot for IAS, second for GtfE, third for something that can keep Aggressive Refrain on (as it's energy eater, this is why I don't like it), in PvE there is the Sunspear skill, as Paragon I always need to carry Sig (as it's better res than anything). Then at least one energy based attack (not many of these).

I can make Bleeding for some second's but a) I need adrenaline, b) it doesn't do any added damage. Compare it to "while moving" Hunter's Shot. People always move.

Again - I have some conditional interrupt. You have how many? 10 or more? Disrupting Throw needs condition - not hard to apply with spears (usually) but then it's still conditional. Problem is I'm expected to have large base of support skills, so I can take damage ones only with... idk - guildies or other Paragons. Two, max 3 attacks if I don't need cap sig in PvE. In PvP non-all-paragon setup I don't even have attack skills.

The only skill I always make place for is Blazing Spear as it's damage+burning which helps a lot.

For the record: I don't agree with the idea of bows being underpowered mainly because nobody complained until spears came in.

Mighty Throw is 2 second cast. (It's a bugged skill description)

It's not that hard to get 16 spear mastery really...
12+4 spear, 9+1 leadership, 9+1 command --> GfTE gives +60% critical at 10 command meaning you have 60% on top of the base critical hit percentage of the spear

Forked arrow means you cannot get hexed or enchanted...that's about as conditional as whether you are attacking from the right or left of the mob.

Applying Daze with Spears are on par with Broadhead arrow. One requires a condition, the other relies on the target not moving. 10 adrenaline under Aggressive Refrain is on pr with 15 recharge...

My point about Apply Poison is although other classes can use it only the Ranger can use it effectively without wasting 15 energy. I don't know where you got this notion about Apply Poison on spears.

Adrenaline attacks CAN be spammed...once it charges and you hit again, the pool is regenerated. It gets better with multiple adrenaline skills since you can chain them. If you're talking about spamming one adrenaline skill, it is quite doable with Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain up.

If Paragons have interrupts on 10 recharge without relying on a condition, all hell would break loose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I don't care about your list of 5 energy skills; you have to take base damage into account, RoF and the fact that adrenaline skills boost the damage per energy and in fact make a lot of difference.

The most telling facts are that rangers aren't used for damage in high level play, and that Ensign agrees that they're underpowered. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant - point to skills like Keen Arrow all you want, Ensign knows the game inside out, and the collection of top players aren't likely to all be wrong.

Once you talk about base damage and rate of fire, then you are talking about the weapon itself, which kind of defeats the point of this entire discussion on bow atatcks being inferior. Didn't you say yourself that the bow damage attacks were inferior...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Bows are underpowered.

Some actually decent bow attacks would help a lot.

If you're talking about DPS, then giving bows DPS comparable to melee is ridiculous. They already can shoot from outside the aggro bubble, which means they can take out casters using attack skills. It's probably why lame zergway or w/e was so dominant in PvP with multiple paragon builds, other than the fact that armor from chants was ridiculous also. They didn't really need to chase down the target as much as IWAY builds (also lameness).

Again, it begs the question: are bows really underpowered or is it something different? Everyone is keep comparing it to spear DPS and not melee weapon DPS. Once you compare a spear to melee weapon (and as you said the DPS was close to a melee weapon)...it suggests that the spear DPS is the cause of the imbalance and not that bows are underpowered DPS-wise.

From the paragon forum:
spear === DPS = 40.24
swords === DPS = 36.58
axe === DPS = 37.44
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10151254

Epinephrine · Jun 25, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

@Lifeinfusion

Ok, comparing attacks makes some sense, but only taking base damage into account; you can't compare the +40+ damage attacks from the assassins daggers with the +20 or so from a Scythe, because the base damage and DPS are so different.

As well, Spear and warrior attacks use adrenaline more often than energy, the energy skills are typically pretty odd, so I have trouble making the comparisons; bringing base damage into it just makes sense.

Spears are overpowered, yes, I'll say that.

Bows however, as has been mentioned above, were hurt very badly with the expansion of condition removal and better skills to deal with conditions, as well as the host of great self-heal options available. Mystic Regeneration by itself reverses pretty much all the degen a ranger can heap on a target, Mending Touch removes the cripple and the poison at the same time if you try a cripshot, and Word of COmfort for example heals for more if there's a condition around.

Rangers get 1 energy per second, so can use a 5 energy skill every 5 seconds or a 10 energy every 10 seconds - they get expertise as well, which cuts this down, but sinking a pile of points into an attribute to make it possible to use your skills regularly hurts damage output - you have less to spend on buffs and support skills. Adrenaline on the other hand can be built constantly, so the 5 energy attacks simply add to the already decent adrenaline damage.

Making a fair comparison is difficult, which is why I point to high level play - what goes on there reflects what works, and rangers currently don't work that well.

ZenRgy · Jun 25, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

[skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Broad Head Arrow[/skill][skill]Apply Poison[/skill][skill]Barbed Arrows[/skill][skill]Barrage[/skill][skill]Keen Arrow[/skill][skill]Melandru's Arrows[/skill][skill]Crippling Shot[/skill]

If you want pure damage, Ranger spike is there, Keen Arrow + Go For The Eyes followed by Savage Shot / Punishing shot is a lot of damage. Barrage is another elite which can pull off a lot of damage.

However rangers went outside of a gimmick/spike/barrage build, their damage is dealt in conditions, apply poison, barbed arrows.

They're not a pure damage class.

Ankkasika · Jun 25, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

If you want pure damage, Ranger spike is there, Keen Arrow + Go For The Eyes followed by Savage Shot / Punishing shot is a lot of damage. Barrage is another elite which can pull off a lot of damage.

Since when has spike been damage? using Dual Shot, Triple Shot and Savage Shot (not Punishing, because i assume you would use Glass Arrows) in one build spammed on recharge to "spike" once per 6 seconds means you shoot about 9 shots in 12 seconds (10 second recharge+2 second attack speed translates to 12 second effective recharge), of which 5 have noticeably (25% upwards) lowered damage.
This translates to 1.33sec attack speed, which you would get by having a 33% attack speed boost without any of the reduced damage arrows. But the problem, of course, is that the only 33% attack speed boost a bow ranger can use is Frenzy, and it still takes ½ to 2/3 of your energy regeneration, depending if you have zealous or not.

And the really funny thing is that Apply Poison with Burning Arrow beats this little excuse of DPS we have here, and we all know that while the damage of that combo is nice, it's nothing earth-shattering and that's why we run Paragons when we want ranged DPS.

So yes, bows need some damage buffing in the way of their attack speed boosts and preparations (degen rangers are powerful enough as is), but the existence of Dual Shot makes buffing the preparations very tricky (ranger spike). Do we really want the only usable preparations to be Apply Poison (ultimate damage), Barbed Arrows (when you can't use Apply Poison), Glass Arrows (ranger spike) and Read the Wind (accuracy)?

ATM the only serious DPS options for a ranger are beastmasters which can use pretty much every weapon except bow. Maybe change Tiger's Fury to a 33% or 50% attack speed boost while wielding a bow? (yeah, I can hope)

lennymon · Jun 25, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ankkasika

stuff...ias...more stuff

[wiki]Flail[/wiki], is ironically overlooked in your ias energy cost 'calculations'
If you want to compare bows and spears... well you can't. They've completely different stats, costs and more importantly skills. Sure, you can examine different weapons in a skill vacuum, but lets face it, do we compare wands to swords? NO
Yes spears DO deal more dps than bows and yet they have far lower utility, hardly any conditions within the spear tree itself and quite frankly PATHETIC interrupt capacity. Given these points as well as Epiniphrine's re: comparing energy+expertise vs energy+adrenaline the comparisons between bows and spears may as well be apples and oranges. If they both did the same thing then yeah, but they don't.

Onto the meat:
I wouldn't argue with Ensign about pretty much anything data wise, but I feel this strongly. While the *bow* itself may be lower dps, but the bow ranger is not by any stretch of the imagination underpowered. One good interrupt increases your relative DPS vs your opponent(s) and we got a lot of those. Conditions are more than just damage potential, they can snare, daze, etc as well. I dunno about everything, but a dazed caster can find even condition removal challenging and frustrating vs a real ranger. All this 'high end' pvp stuff getting spouted, well... I see TONS of <#50 GVG teams running rangers, don't you all? I also seem to remember iQ doing quite well with more than one.... must be because Rangers suck...?

LifeInfusion · Jun 25, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Well the way I see it, if you're applying conditions via preparations, even if someone mending touches/restore conditions the condition that is 5 energy that could've gone elsewhere.
It's not like the preparations go by how many condition removals were used to take them off...

Age · Jun 25, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Ranger can apply more conditions using traps as trap heavy.Don't forget about pets.

Phe Belladona · Jun 25, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

bows being underpowered is laughable, they have Dis Shot ffs the most ridiculous skill in the game. if you're talking damage in pve use barrage on a customised bow its pretty good averaging about 70ish per arrow - add a paragon on the team to buff it to silly levels if you want. pvp rangers are the most flexible chars in game with a bow, from quick condition spread, to interupts (that recharge quickly, deal damage even if they miss AND likely stick a condition on too) to distance shots outranging anything else in game, bow attacks ignore ward vs melee and arent as dominated by snares as a melee char.

seriously ranger with bow is not underpowered (i'd say overpowered personally NERF DIS SHOT!)

masteroflife · Jun 25, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

bows are fine, it's the paragons that need a nerf and i don't mean paragon have too powerful skills. Spears have almost the same damage as a bow (-1 from high and low) but i believe they share the same range and speed as a short bow. and paragon have 80 base armor with high healing ability and very good energy management. It is just not fair, they way I see it, anet needs to lower the base damage of spears or lower the base armor of paragon.

lennymon · Jun 26, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Actually refire rate on short bow is about 33% greater than that of the spear (1.5 for spear vs 2 seconds for short/flatbow).

(please note Epinephrines post at top of this page regarding delusion

)

Marverick · Jun 26, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Spears have a slow flight time and are incredibly inaccurate and easy to dodge, and Paragons don't have a snare besides Crippling Anthem {e}.

LifeInfusion · Jun 26, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

Actually refire rate on short bow is about 33% greater than that of the spear (1.5 for spear vs 2 seconds for short/flatbow).

(please note Epinephrines post at top of this page regarding delusion

)

Aggressive Refrain disagrees.

and bows have slower flight time than spears, except for the recurve bow.

Lord Natural · Jun 26, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Bows are fine. You can make a DPS build with ignite/kindle if that's your thing. It will still be less pressure than a Warrior, but that's the point. If Rangers could do the DPS of a warrior, and still spam savage and d shot all over your face, no one would use any other class. As it stands right now, I believe rangers are about as balanced as any class is in guild wars. They are versatile enough to have many uses, and though there is some debate on the gimmicky use of the BM line, any big changes would create uneeded imbalance.

plastichead · Jun 26, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

bows underpowered? no effin way!

i been running a variation of this build for my past 58 glad points in RA.
16 marksmanship
15 expertise
3 in conjure whatever element you like

elemental recurve of marksmanship

Glass arrows
savage shot
dual shot
needling shot
marauders shot
conjure whatever element you like
lightning reflexes
res sig

by the time you have run thru Marauders+savage+dual shot+savage they will be under 50% health and its needling needling needling needling (51 damage each lol)
your probably wondering why only 3 in conjure?
thats because Reversal of Fortune is triggered by conjure 1st and your arrows still do lots of damage. RoF will not save you from this. blocks will though.

i'm a little evil tho, so instead of conjure i bring Gaze of Contempt.

i would'nt call this a spike build, (although marauders will sometimes hit for 120+ damage)its more like a burst damage build.

rigor mortis may be a good hex (thought of this at work) at 3 curses it'll last 10 seconds, long enough for you burst of damage to do its work with lightning reflexes up.

weaken armor would be better if it didnt take so long to cast.

-----B Ded

GeniusLoci · Jun 26, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

An arrow through the knees would also break stances Warriors, sins and Paragons can all break stances why cant Rangers or Dervishes?

You really don't make a point, it's like "they can, why we can't". because you can do other things, for example? Or because if you could do those things at the end someone will ask why you have 3, not 4 pips of energy regen and why you don't have necro-like spells etc.

You know I wish my Para had throw dirt. Now why she can't just grab some dirt and throw it? Or only rangers can?

Sounds stupid. Not that rangers only do this but to ask to get it as Para skill.

Quote:

Knee Shot 10e, 20r does only 5-15 damage, if it hits a moving target that target is knocked down, If target is using a stance that stance ends.

This is ridiculous. Even the warrior's "if moving>KD skill" is more conditional that this one and they are... you know ... meant to knockdown things with hammer. And you want not only to KD, but to end stance.

Quote:

Applying Daze with Spears are on par with Broadhead arrow. One requires a condition, the other relies on the target not moving. 10 adrenaline under Aggressive Refrain is on pr with 15 recharge...

Not any condition and please - there is no casting while moving. So its way easy to apply, especially in PvE.

Quote:

If Paragons have interrupts on 10 recharge without relying on a condition, all hell would break loose.

Then why it's not wrong Rangers to have it? People complain Spears are better, but they are better in DPS. So now lets make the DPS and then what? Give Rangers same shouts?

I always liked both Ranger and now Paragon and I can't say either of their weapons has problems. those classes are so different, that comparing them on DPS base is not enough of an argument w/o getting into most used in PvP/PvE builds and so on. So far I haven't met Spear Paragon. May be it's just me but once I started to use more shouts I made my life easier, not to mention my party's life. If I go again for DPS I should be in all paragon team.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 26, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeniusLoci

This is ridiculous. Even the warrior's "if moving>KD skill" is more conditional that this one and they are... you know ... meant to knockdown things with hammer. And you want not only to KD, but to end stance. Not any condition and please - there is no casting while moving. So its way easy to apply, especially in PvE.

Knockdowns usually revolve around moving target except Ele Knockdowns or some of the hammer knockdowns. Also the little damage it causes is what balances it, it doesnt basically do anything but break stance and conditional knockdown. But if u think thats still overpowered add a All Non attack skills are disabled for 4 seconds.

GeniusLoci · Jun 26, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Damage doesn't balance. One of the few unconditional (if not the only?) Warrior interrupts is a) not linked to any attribute, b) doesn't do damage. Even their KDs have to meet not so easy to predict conditions and the unquestionable KD is 6 adrenaline Elite.

What I meant was Bull's Eye (hope I remember the name correctly, it needs Tactics?) KD, which has similar effect except the fact it's melee and doesn't end stances. So the skill you suggested, even if it's 20 energy which at 10 Expertize this is how much... 12 energy - not that much and you will probably have even higher Exp, and 1 pip more plus larger energy poop plus ranged attack. Even if you give it half range (which I think is some of the most dumb thing you can do to a Ranger given is class) it will be abused to death and the stance-ending part will be just too much.

KD-ing rangers is out of question. If they take out your trapping and spirits (which are way too energy intensive for warrior) - ok, have your KD and even stance-ending, cripple-applying skills but then will you be ranger or some mix from other professions?

tekeen · Jun 29, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Can anyone here give me an idea of what kind of numbers mean you are achieving high dps with ranger.

In other words how do we stack against per say a dervish hit for hit in min/max damage averages.